How WhatsApp Becomes The Storefront | Kalebu Gwalugano

We record live in Nairobi and map how WhatsApp becomes the default channel for buying and selling across Africa, from product discovery to payment and delivery. Kalebu Jordani Gualugano explains how Gala and Sarufi use conversational AI to formalize the manual WhatsApp selling flow without forcing new behavior.

• Why WhatsApp functions like a commerce operating system across African markets
• How customers discover products on social platforms then close sales on WhatsApp
• The “human front” problem and how AI automation reduces missed orders
• Gala onboarding basics, number setup, ordering mode, and merchant visibility into chats
• When bots need human intervention and how a copilot model handles edge cases
• Payments, KYC, and trust, including why pay on delivery persists
• Using voice calls, SMS, OTP, and delivery notifications to improve reliability
• WhatsApp Flow for smoother forms and ticketing experiences
• Founder “school fees”, moving from being too technical to focusing on revenue
• Fundraising realities, pitching, negotiation, grants, and building surface area for luck

You can find all the APIs and the pricing and the community and the documentation at africastalking.com and Impact Masters, in case you're looking for a solution as a service, check out Impactmasters.io

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Transcript

Collaboration, Failure, And Owning Problems

SPEAKER_02 0:03

And within Africa, what I see personally is a collaborative space where we can create value across multiple different sectors and across multiple different countries. And what does that require? It requires each individual to play their part. And more so than that, it's also for us to be able to collaborate to make sure that we are maximizing the value that exists amongst us.

SPEAKER_03 0:25

A lot of big founders here and a lot of developers here can attest that uh sometimes we build MVPs for even four months, six months, only to put it in the market and realize it's not going to work. People don't like it, it can't do anything. And then you have to build again for six months before you know it does one year. The best gift you can give to a human pay is a chance.

SPEAKER_05 0:46

Exactly. A child that does not cry will die in the career.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

There are too many problems in the world for us not to be the solutions to them. There are too many of us pointing fingers, looking for other people to solve for things that we know innately. We have a piece of the puzzle for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Think about the failures you've had in your life. Don't you learn more from failure than you do from success? I have.

SPEAKER_05 1:15

Absolutely, that's where the biggest lessons are.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Yeah.

Why WhatsApp Is Commerce Infrastructure

SPEAKER_05 1:28

It's Impact Masters Podcast in collaboration with Retro Podcast, recording live today in Nairobi. It's a wonderful day. It's a wonderful day. And we have an amazing guest in the house. Uh but before then, uh, I would like to welcome you to today's episode where we talk about Africa digital economy, the emergence of WhatsApp as a de facto operating system for commerce across the continent. Small and medium enterprises, from retailers and logistics operators to clinics and learning institutions, are moving the entire commercial stack onto a single channel that is chat. Today we speak with Kalebu Jordani Gualugano. The second time he is gracing these uh podcast settings. He's a Tanzanian software engineer, but a global economy trotter. He's uh everywhere. His solutions works across borders, and a machine learning specialist and founder of Neurotech Africa, the team behind Sarufi, Gala, and Gala Rails. Platforms that are shaping the future of conversational AI and social commerce in Africa. But before then, this is a retro podcast in cooperation with Impact Masters broadcast, uh supported by Africa Stocking and Impact Masters. Africa Stocking provides a communication platform as a service, integrating telco for the developers, providing new USSD, voice, SMS, and mobile data APIs for the techies to build sustainable and scalable businesses. Impact Masters is an amalgation of communities and providing uh experiences as a service as well as a tech uh solution as a service, and you can check it at impactmasters.io and africastalk and africastoking.com. Without further ado, I would like to welcome uh Mr. Kaleb. Kalebu. Yes, how are you, man? Uh it's been a while, huh? All is well, all is well. When were we with you to uh last? Is it 2023, 2022?

SPEAKER_04 3:27

2023, I think.

SPEAKER_05 3:30

2023. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like two years ago, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:34

Yeah, like two years ago.

SPEAKER_05 3:36

But we've been seeing each other in different uh spectrum of the tech ecosystem. One of the key things is that um, you know, last time we we talked about his story, in case you're wondering, you can actually go check uh the recorded podcasts is online. You can get to know the journey of Kalebu as a person and where he came from. Uh, he's one of the engineers who has really, you know, learned the ropes, you know, from you know, the village all the way to the dar, and now he's a global entrepreneur and also a solid engineer. And last time I checked was his building communities, very active in communities, ensuring that uh the pipeline is flowing, which is a very interesting and niche interest of mine when I see entrepreneurs really pay forward. But today we're gonna talk about um you know WhatsApp, which actually loops in your business. So tell us more about your business, man. You have grown. How many employees do you have now?

SPEAKER_04 4:32

Employees, I would say something about eight, uh, including myself, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:36

Wonderful. Can you introduce us to your business for those who don't know about your business?

SPEAKER_04 4:39

Okay, okay. So, business has evolved pretty much over the years. We began mostly as like a consultant arm around AI. Basically, come to us with any of our AI problems, we solve it. Also, we did a lot of consulting around big data, but also credit scoring for come for like fintech banks. And then over time, I had like a huge interest in building chatbots and AI. And we then over time began building something around similar angle, which is called Sarufi, which was more like uh like a platform that helped developers to build chatbots, our cross platform, was it WhatsApp, Telegram, SMS, USSD. Yeah. And then right now we are basically building Gala, which is purely WhatsApp-faced commerce platform that is aimed to empower medium to large enterprises to automate the entire commerce experience through WhatsApp. Yeah. So it's been a journey, but if you notice something, it's mostly gonna be AI. And right now, WhatsApp is becoming very, very common in between what we're doing now.

SPEAKER_05 5:38

Yeah. Yeah. And uh, you know, before even going deep to technology, let's ground ourselves in behavioral reality for most African consumers. So in one shopping, for sure, they'll go and either chat GPT or Google, whatever solution they are looking for, and then they get some proposals. That does like two, three years ago. But today, if someone actually even Googles, the first solution they get is AI generated, like giving them like an overview, what they should look at, like a summary that they can go through quickly. And of course, different definitely people want to call. That's the default, right? But now call costs a lot of money, and also sometimes it doesn't go through, or you know, network is not available as you would want it to, uh, and CSMS, and that's why Africa stocking is big across Africa. But now with the chat, if there is internet, definitely you can actually chat and you know, use Telegram, Messenger, WhatsApp, and so on and so forth. So it's cheaper than uh browsing, right? Uh, given the the noise that browsing gives you. Yeah. So most of this requires new learning curve, especially now with how we have AI. And and one of the key things is that, and you can tell us this when you explain uh what you're building, is that uh you can actually even interface the chat with the SMS, which is like a 2G, 3G kind of interface where you can chat and get responses on SMS, definitely confirming the OTP or that is one time uh password, as well as the confirmation of transaction and so on and so forth. Uh like Empesa is entirely built on the principle of if I have not seen the confirmed message, you have not paid. So if there's something that should be reliable in Africa that has been approved business model, is chat and and and for you you choose WhatsApp first, right? Are there reasons around that?

SPEAKER_04 7:36

Yeah. So you talked about how people like purchase product, right? So say they go to Google and they search for a product, they get a recommendation, and they go for that. But I would I would argue, say in Africa, most people don't do that. So instead of using Google for searching products, they use Instagram. Yeah. So Instagram is like a massive, like yeah, like you said, discover is like a search app for searching products. Yeah. So for instance, because if I go there, I go to an Instagram page of a particular product, I can just see the prices or the sellings. But most of the time, Instagram is more like a website. So it's why are you they're using websites like Instagram over website? A lot of people still don't know how to make a website. It's expensive, you need a domain, you need something. So a lot of business owners they don't have websites. So even if you go to search it, you won't find them on Google. You might find maybe some result on Instagram, you know, right to Instagram. Okay. So a lot of business owners they manage to build themselves quite a brand online. A lot of them they're doing on Facebook, Instagram, and now massively TikTok. So this social platform are like discovery platforms where people can actually discover products using maybe content creation, including product. And if you notice now, so this is discovery, right? How are people actually purchasing this product? Yeah. So digging deeper, you find a lot of them just put a WhatsApp link. Okay, if you if you want more product, just DM me on WhatsApp. Yeah. Why? I think so many reasons. I think it's it evolved like naturally. Everyone is on WhatsApp, everyone is on WhatsApp, but at the same time, it's WhatsApp, it feels like more personal because in social media they're using username and everything. It's very hard to tie it to a person, even if they scum, you get you never know. But WhatsApp, there's an essence of like personal connection of talking to someone. Yes. Yeah, and you can call and then you can, I don't know, video call. So it's it's it's more personal, and people are more used to it. So a lot of people they might discover product on social platforms, but go to WhatsApp to have a chat about purchasing. So, like someone said, Maybe uh take a screenshot of a pitch on Instagram, go on like on WhatsApp, say, okay, do you have this? And then the business, like, yes, we do have uh, he's like, Okay, I want maybe this size and these colors. And he's okay, these colors is how much. And then when they're ready, like, okay, the customer just sends a pay bill, lip a number, a pay bill to the customer, a screenshot. But when you pay, just send me a confirmation screenshot. And then when they do that, it's okay, I'll call a border, talk piggya, you just have a conversation on where to deliver the product. So this is how a lot of commerce is happening. This is what has taken off. So a lot of people are actually selling heavily on this social platform like WhatsApp. The only thing that is not different is that it's manual. Instead of having a storefront, you have a human front.

SPEAKER_05 10:20

So it has to be done. Sometimes if it's not maintained, you may you may run out of stock and people are still ordering.

SPEAKER_04 10:26

You may run out of stock. It's very hard to manage if you promote it.

SPEAKER_05 10:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 10:30

But at some times, you know, it's human. You might be busy, you might be out of the internet. So it means you you're relying on you being on WhatsApp always for you to make money, right? So it's working, but it's that has its own limitation because it's a human front and it's like that's what works right now, right? So if you take people, as you say, to website and everything, see there's a learning curve and there's also detailes, so you never know for sure. Yeah. So I think um for us, what we are now trying to do, so we see this is a commerce which we think it's actually working, right? People are buying everything like tourism, everything, like products, services on WhatsApp, but it's just very manual, right? So, what we are doing is can we find a way to replicate what a human does to the customers so that the customer can feel like it's the same kind of experience. But right now, instead of talking to a human, we have an AI system on the other end that actually been trained to understand how you purchase. So if you go there, like, hey, I like this, send your pictures, and then you say, Okay, maybe I would like to purchase this, it sends your cart, you choose how to pay, you pay, you get an instant receipt, and the business owner gets a notification, SMS. Oh, there's a customer. And then it can call for bolt. And so what if you can formalize what is happening on WhatsApp? Because it's actually the kind of commerce that they're actually working right now. So that's what we are now trying to do with Scala. Formalizing that because now it's actually going to trend. Like now you have all these LLMs, a lot of them anthropic, open EI is really best LLM models that are actually very, very good at understanding conversation and having conversation. So all of this is giving us like all the tools that is necessary to kind of replicate that human front on WhatsApp to put now an AI, just now merge it with commerce C payment and all other nuances to handle a conversation for commerce.

SPEAKER_05 12:24

Wonderful.

From Social Discovery To WhatsApp Orders

SPEAKER_05 12:25

I have so many questions on this. One of them is there's someone who will hear Instagram and they'll be like, definitely that's a certain demographic of people that are actively on Instagram, right? But also there is maybe this other generation which has businesses, but they they they don't either they don't know how to use Instagram properly, or they feel like, do I really want my business there? What would be your take on them? Should they hire like young people who understand how Instagram works and that means maybe extra business, or should you just go directly to WhatsApp where they are and support it directly from there?

SPEAKER_04 13:05

Yeah, I think I think it's very crucial. You know, if they need to hire some gen Z, TikTok does this, yeah, or creative comedies. Yeah. Because nowadays people like that they don't react to posters or something. You need actually to be creative with content because people don't want just to, you know, you can't spam people with your like your poster, like, hey, buy this, buy that. So people will buy to you because if you mix what you're selling and some entertainment, some comedy, some trend going on, yeah, pay attention because now attention is very rare. Like, how do you capture that? So I think it's very, very crucial to really keep a presence on this platform. Yeah, even if you have a website, but I think if you now want to capture more audiences, you need to be very, very like leaning toward how you're gonna strategize how to reach this a lot of young buyers, but also on, I don't know, not only young buzzers, a lot of people use TikTok right days, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook. So keeping your presence there and giving content creation, I think it's very, very crucial. Um, yeah. Otherwise, you might just spend a lot of money sponsoring, sponsoring and not even getting results, you know.

How Gala Automates WhatsApp Selling

SPEAKER_05 14:06

Yeah, yeah. So assume now I'm I'm a newbie in your business. Yeah, take me through the process. Maybe I have my Instagram, I have my WhatsApp number. It might be personal, not business. How do I onboard? How does that journey work?

SPEAKER_04 14:20

Okay, so the journey is so we are we're we're WhatsApp business official provider. Okay, so we uh can onboard business to this WhatsApp commerce on behalf of them. So using the existing number or do I need a new number? Okay, so for a while we've been using a new number, but right now you don't need a new number. I can use the existing number. So as long as that number is on WhatsApp business. Uh so what's happening is some people mix the business number with spasma chart, yeah, and some people they have a business number which is exclusive for for chatting. Yeah, so what we do is you just tell us, okay, this number, maybe you mix it with spasma charts, because we on on Gala with something called ordering mode, ordering mode it won't respond to just text. So if just maybe this is a personal chart, you need to handle it, so it it will respond only if someone go to cut and place an order. So if someone goes to your catalog and place an order, it automatically jumped in to respond and take all the way to the payment. So in that in that case, for those people who are mixing the number, maybe for a while, basically we need to have a business number that is actually used for only business information. You can just use ordering mode to handle that. But for people who are actually using it for only business, it can go fully. So they can use, they can see all the charts on WhatsApp, but at the same time, the same charts are being automated by our system Nogara. And sometimes they are able to also see all the charts going on the bot using uh we have a gala mechanic app available on PlayStation App Store that actually kind of have like a chart section where you're able to see all the chats that are going on WhatsApp that the bot is doing, but sometimes the bot is not just doing it in a in a like in a in in full control. So there's another and there's another AI that is watching the AI chat. So what happened is if it recognizes that this there's a conversation is going now somewhere that it needs an intervention, it sends a notification to you. So you actually see a notification. Oh, this the customer, it explains your summary of the of the problem. Like, oh, this customer is trying to order huge in bulk. You might want to assist. So you can just see there on Gala and then go on the chat and then assist there, or maybe you can use a WhatsApp interface to talk to them. So we're kind of trying to blend in some sort of what you call like a copilot on your WhatsApp. So you can think of it as a sales co-pilot that will work on your WhatsApp, and you can just customize how you want it to be triggered to respond to users.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:46

Do you need an Instagram account?

SPEAKER_05 16:49

You don't. Okay. So just WhatsApp business is you can actually undo everything.

SPEAKER_04 16:53

Not only WhatsApp business. So the thing is, yeah, because you know, there's Meta, right? Yes, the parent company. Yeah. And WhatsApp is kind of independent, but sometimes it's acquired, right? So for onboarding, we use your Facebook uh account.

SPEAKER_05 17:06

So you also need Facebook.

SPEAKER_04 17:07

Yeah, so basically you need a Facebook account and a WhatsApp business.

SPEAKER_05 17:11

Specifically, Facebook page.

SPEAKER_04 17:12

Page is not necessary, just an account.

SPEAKER_05 17:14

Your personal account or business account?

SPEAKER_04 17:17

You have you need to have a Facebook account. On Facebook account, there's something called portfolio. Okay. Business portfolio. Okay. So when you Facebook, when you when you have a Facebook account, you're going to create a business portfolio, which is like basically done using an embedded sign up. So there's no extra step you can create differently. So you create a portfolio and then that number will be attached to that portfolio that you're creating.

SPEAKER_05 17:38

Yeah. Interesting. So you just need a Facebook account and WhatsApp number. Yes. Business.

SPEAKER_04 17:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 17:45

Nothing else.

SPEAKER_04 17:46

Nothing else, pretty much. But now it depends, right? Because with Scala, we're offering more like additional services that we're offering, right? Okay. So like payments. Um, I would say for a market like Tanzania, we are providing, we're collecting the payments on behalf of the business owners. So for us to do that, we need some additional KYC, maybe, okay, maybe your business registration. Yeah. So that is mostly not for the sake of integrating, for the sake of just KYC, basically, depending on what you're getting from us. But for other markets, like we don't basically provide the payment collection services. Like, okay, let's say Kenya, we we are plugging PayStack and Flutterwave. So we don't necessarily have to collect the KYC because it has been done by the payment provider. Yeah. So for us, we're born, like, okay, use our tools to operate your business.

SPEAKER_05 18:29

Yeah. And if someone doesn't isn't is not already onboarded on these platforms, do you do you onboard them or how does it work? Say I don't have PayStack, I don't have and PESA deal or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 18:40

Yeah, so I think I think for Kenya, it's like we're very early now, it's early stage. So it's a mat we're trying to just change how we're gonna really operate here. But I think so far is we are just gonna get an official partnership with SpaceTack and FlatWave so we can actually fast track the onboarding processes. Yeah, instead of letting the customer go doing their own, it might take some time. So yeah, so ideally the plan is to on onboard them and help them register those payment collection accounts. Yeah, but for TZ, because we provide the payment collection services, we they don't have they don't have to do that. We we do it for automatically with the plug into PSP.

SPEAKER_05 19:11

Yeah,

Sarufi’s Shift Toward Enterprise Revenue

SPEAKER_05 19:12

yeah. So Kalebu, you started with Sarufi.

SPEAKER_04 19:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 19:15

Is it still there or that one is phased out?

SPEAKER_04 19:18

No, it's still there. Basically, we have uh so Sarufi over time it evolved to be more like an enterprise comp like enterprise brand. Okay, yeah. So we primarily, I think from the last podcast, yeah, it was heavily centered around developers. I think you guys have built an amazing company, uh targeting developers. Yeah, but we are really having like a hard time from now, okay. How do you transition these developers to try to become paying customers, right? Yeah, because I was looking at a lot of AT playbook, you know, call opening chapters in school and something, and then these people come to college, come to work, uh workforce, they go into companies, and then the first thing they know is your company, right? Yeah, yeah. But for us, it didn't like we don't we didn't have the patience to wait for that because of runaway, right? Yeah, yeah. So it's it was not really because okay, you you look around at your financials, you're burning cash, building communities, doing this and that. Um, and then you know it's not translating as much to revenue. Um, and you don't have, you know, you you need to react, right? You can just watch this issue thinking, you need to react first. And for us, the reaction was basically now we saw some segment which was working, which maybe it's enterprise company. Yeah. So for enterprise company, now we have like, I don't know, three major enterprises using a platform and they're paying premium. So that I think yeah, it's very, very good cash, cash flow. But at the same time, so I think for us right now, there's two things where why we like we which we like made now even come with Scala. So one of them we're really struggling with the rate of custom acquisition. So enterprise companies sell like B2B takes a long time to do it. To convert. Exactly. And then if you don't, if you're new, you don't have those relationships, you don't have that brand that enterprise can actually trust you to work with them, it's actually very hard to penetrate. So it's easier if you at least have a brand, like people know, okay. Oh, you did for this, you did for that. Yeah. Oh, you are you are your Sarufi. Um, so right now um we're seeing a lot of uptake in Sarufi. Why? Because I think, yeah, so we've been with Galo have been able to deploy over 150 plus shops online. But sometimes we have a couple of enterprise companies using a product, but sometimes the brand has been growing over time. Yeah. So the right now, where do we have it? We're not focusing as heavily on selling. We're seeing an uptake in B2B clients because B2B clients want trust, they want safety, they want the assurance. They don't just want like a technical solution because that is one of it, but they also look at you as a company. Are you are you reliable? You'll be here next month, or it's just are you a jig? So um, yeah, so I think it is it's still alive, but it's now it's land more like a kind of more towards enterprise like inter. Place solution to businesses rather than going to developers as a tool. Perhaps still developers using a platform, but for us as a strategy, we more learn, okay. Salute bomb will be an enterprise plan to focus on enterprises.

SPEAKER_05 22:14

Yeah. I can hear your struggles, but you know, that's why impact masters exist. So you can talk to us, give you a couple of frameworks, strategies to make it work. Some of these strategies are a bit slow, but they're very reliable and they're very important, especially in the African volatile market. B2B is good as it lasts. If the people start churning, you are in the world. You have seen companies close, right? Which were generating a lot of uh revenue. So not to like scare you or anything, but in the tech ecosystem, one thing I've found as a trend if you don't have really the pipeline, even for B2B or B2C, if that's your model, eventually you you lose that traction really fast. And if you had like three good paying customers and you lose two, you're in trouble because some of the hires are based on the that kind of revenue that is coming. Yeah, but the beauty of spreading your your your your risk across and and building the pipeline is that you can actually it it start uptake slowly but surely and it never stops if if if you continue doing what you're doing and improving. And also again, it gives you some feedback that really helps you build solid uh brand as well as business. Definitely some of those guys, maybe in engineering colleges or maybe beginner or entry-level engineers, they become CTOs. And guess what? They are familiar with your technology and so on and so forth. So there's a lot, but uh, if you're interested, we can we can always talk and and see. But interestingly, you have been uh Africa stocking uh customer, right?

Voice, SMS, Delivery, And Reliability

SPEAKER_05 23:58

Tell us more about how you use our technology.

SPEAKER_04 24:00

We use it, for instance, like right now, the most exciting part is basically been experimenting with a voice API. So when a customer, like okay, they receive an order, right? You have to send them an SMS, you have to maybe uh send them an app notification, the makeup app. But sometimes, sometimes we find someone maybe is busy and is missing that order notification, and it is can delay actually to not react on a customer. So we manage to plug voice API in a way that is optional, like okay, someone can enable it in a way that when someone purchased the product, yeah, if they enable it, they can also customize okay, I want uh maybe order from minimum from this amount to this amount to get an alert call, call me that okay, there's a new order coming in, please check it out. So that is one of the apartments. Like we I think we we we worked with um for clientele, maybe USS, but for us, like as internally, uh I would say maybe SMS and um and call. Call is cool. Yeah, I've been playing around a lot with call. Yeah, so I think call call is really cool. Yeah, I think we uh we we are basically thinking of doing even some deeper um where you can actually do with the call API, but I think yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:09

Yeah, I mean everyone who is using yeah, they're finding uh our voice API really quite intuitive. And and I understand uh we're actually scaling it in different country uh countries as we speak. The recent one being Rwanda and South Africa, if I'm not wrong. So if in these countries you see a lot of us, but even before you get there, definitely you will always uh you can always integrate and continue beautiful. And the beauty of this is because of AI, text-to-speech, speech to text is quite intuitive in a way that helps people reach out the customer regardless of the situation or availability. But how is a SMS? Do you use it on OTP? Is it confirmations of the orders? Uh how does it work for you?

SPEAKER_04 25:55

Yes, I think we do it for both. We use it for order confirmation, OTP, but sometimes we in we've also plugged in bolt in Tanzania.

SPEAKER_05 26:03

So Bolt is when So Bolt is the delivery guy. Yes. Last mile.

SPEAKER_04 26:08

Yeah, last mile. So we've we've plugged into Bolt official API in a way that when a customer places an order, the system will automatically call for Bolt. And then so we need to alert the business owner, okay, there's a bolt coming in, but also, yeah, so that they can actually okay, go and respond. So yeah, so we don't we don't rely heavily on less in up notification because they might miss it. So we also use like multiple ways to notify the business owner, or there's a ride coming in, ride is already here. You can call them through this number, yeah. So I think that that that that for that that case basically order OTP and ride notification.

SPEAKER_05 26:42

Yeah. And and one trend that I've seen with the e-commerce uh nowadays is that people prefer to pay on delivery. Is that the case or that that is changing?

SPEAKER_04 26:51

I think that is mostly because of trust. Yeah, yeah. So I think, for instance, I I do purchase a lot on Instagram, right? I don't know any of the shop owner if they if I send my money. If I send my money, uh my money is gone, right? Yeah. So there's there's no one to assure me that my money is safe, right? But sometimes if I say all this, like maybe former commerces which have integrated payments, they don't have a wide pool of pro of things I want to purchase. So I don't have for for this official, like say they have e-commerce marketplaces, yeah. A lot of them I don't yet have like a like a distribution of well services that like a lot of services that I can actually go purchase this, purchase that. So as much as I might purchase one or two from this formal like platform, commerce platform, I might learn more towards Instagram. Yes, because I see there's a valid pool of products. If I scroll a bit, Instagram also show me ads, like oh, it might also like this. Yeah, so I think yeah, it's it's it's very immense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:49

And what are the trends when it comes to uh you know e-commerce? Because also there is a the there's a uh some of the e-commerce who choose to have the transport embedded into the whole process. Like I'll see instead of paying a border guy every time, why can't I have three borders? And every time the delivery is required, it's my border guy who takes the the product. That means now I enable payment or delivery because if it's not paid, I'll not deliver. Right. Also, have you thought about insurance?

SPEAKER_04 28:26

I mean, yeah, so I think for for deliveries, so for us, like okay, because if you're running an e-commerce, you have a payment, you have AI, you're running too many businesses to us, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So for us, we've tried our best not to really, because what is your core business as like what is your core business? What is something that if you don't use it, you don't have it, your customer will go for someone else, right? Yeah, so for as I'll say the one it is the AI aspect of it, but another is integration among the partners. So it what it does for us is we're able to do a lot, it's a few resources because imagine now we have to make it like okay, let's say we support the whole of that Islam delivery, right? How many riders do I need to have? It's crazy, it's crazy. Or I might say, well, I'm rolling out for only uh some place in Dallasalam, Mesemi Kocheni, and we load out soon in Carriako. So that is is a lot to do, right? But if you can use partners which already have services, like I use Bolt, Bolt have fleet everywhere. So right now, I can do like someone using Gala, I can do delivery anywhere in DA because we already have Bolt fleet resources. Yeah. So I don't have to spend a penny to invest in logistical operation to make e commerce work for me. And sometimes, so I think the issue of pay on delivery is again a trust issue. So for us, we basically put KYC on when I'm onboarding this mechan, we correct their business registrations and we assure them if so we we monitor the conversation. So if there's any like frauds going on, we basically take action on the business owner, maybe terminate the account. So we basically have done already KYC on these business owners. So now customers are feel more safely to purchase now online. So you go on Instagram, if someone is using Gala, they can go there, yeah, purchase from them. And at least now the trust now can be solved if you can have an intermediary in the middle.

SPEAKER_05 30:10

Yeah. Yeah. And now that you've mentioned Gala for the 10th time, it reminds me there's another business known as Nala.

unknown 30:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 30:19

Which is is it a payment gateway? Is that a is it called Remittance platform, right?

SPEAKER_04 30:25

Yeah, they they've they've remit they've um remittance, but now they're building like a payment trail.

SPEAKER_05 30:31

Yeah, payout platform. Okay, okay. Yeah, what is this the Nala Gala? Is there like a trend like you know, if you if you name, and this is like a side uh question, if you name it na you know, something you know, la is gonna make it, or it was just coincident?

SPEAKER_04 30:47

It's a coincidence, because I didn't even name it. So what happened is um we're basically looking for a name, right? Yeah, we're building like a something of a like a commerce platform. Yeah, so a lot of the names that were coming in were like, okay, soccer, you know, like soccer, maybe chat soccer, or maybe I don't know, like this soccer, soccer stuff. Yeah, but like okay, this sounds too common. Yeah, there was soccer watch, which closed down, yeah, yeah. So okay, let's try something new. So one of the uh one of the colleagues said, okay, you know, why not gala? You know, so gala is means in swahili means like uh warehouse, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:24

More like uh granary, yeah, yeah, where you store food, foods, right?

SPEAKER_04 31:29

So it doesn't translate directly, but there's some resemblance with like a store.

SPEAKER_05 31:34

Yeah, I see, I see, I see. Yeah, now now I'm getting, man. Yeah, that sounds cool. Who came up with that? Equally called Lisa. Ah, yeah, interesting. All right, all right. Uh, thank you for explaining that. But when you said it, actually, that's when I like this Nala, now there's Gala. And I think uh, you know, when the Nala CEO he likes coming into Nairobi, whenever he's around and he watches this, can actually have a conversation to talk more about that. Did you guys collaborate?

SPEAKER_04 32:03

Uh, what's with who? With the with the Nala you know team? Uh no, no, I think no, not really, because I think we were doing quite two different businesses. Two different businesses, yeah. Um, yeah, maybe at some point, um, when we alone, maybe I don't know, uh, cross-border may can't, yeah. But I think that right now, no, not really, not much happening.

SPEAKER_05 32:24

But I have a question that is kind of controversial. Do do like uh TZ entrepreneurs really collaborate?

SPEAKER_04 32:33

It depends. So because you can be building in TZ, but for global, right? Or you can be building something local in TZ. From my experience, I think it's quite positive, right? I've been I've received like immensive like mentoring and support from like other founders, but sometimes other founders which are building products which we've been able to sell our product to other founders. So I think, and sometimes you also use their services, right? So I think there's also like a very, very open collaboration among founders to founders. Um, yeah, but there's always anomalies. There's always anomalies, there's people who don't really uh do that much of support. Yeah. But again, I think I think it's quite positive here.

SPEAKER_05 33:09

This question is it's leading somewhere.

Ecosystem Collaboration And The Funding Gap

SPEAKER_05 33:12

Given that you know you have come up through the ecosystem, the full spectrum of the ecosystem, being in the communities, being a dev, and so on and so forth. At this stage, do you feel like maybe there's another platform that is required where maybe entrepreneurs could meet, exchange thoughts, learnings, lessons, opportunities, network, and so on? I saw Sarah Spark, which was super interesting. Do you need more of those? Do they serve the ecosystem? You know, and what can be done better given that you're the key player in the ecosystem? We need more money.

SPEAKER_04 33:45

Just more money. I think community are there. Like, like I think I mean, I don't know, a couple of groups, like 10 groups with startup founder, founder, founders. I think it's good. Um, yeah, a lot of opportunities are being shared. There's a lot of very niche groups, like okay, there's fintech association, there's fintech founders. So if you know, for instance, in TZ, if you're doing payment, maybe something like a like a payment layers down, so you don't have so there's groups where you usually like people actually talk about what's happening, these challenges. So I think I think we we have those platforms. Maybe it could be better. Yeah, I think I think platforms are there. Again, money. But I think one of the basic bridges, yeah, as much as those platforms come, but also I think the aspect of financing. I think for Kenya it's a bit more mature, but for TZ, I think it is still very, very early. Because I think I think I saw I saw I saw I saw a newsletter yesterday, like a like a like a paper saying Tanzania there's this year they haven't raised, they haven't crossed uh 50 million check in terms of all ecosystem fundraise. That is USD or Tanzania's shillings? No, it's USD, right? But you may find ecosystem around Nairobi raising I don't know, 400, and you know, Majirani we're doing 15, not even 15. So I think and now there's not like there's no companies there, right? There's 7 million population, there's a like an amazing founders building very good solution, but sometimes um some sometimes find like the lack of finance can actually be creep or these creeper, let's say.

SPEAKER_05 35:17

Yeah, no, I mean I hear you, but but but one of the key things that I found, given my experience in the ecosystem, is that even the funding actually follows the trends. Like, for instance, if we have uh a great ecosystem of just founders and there's no like talent, definitely we have to import that talent. And that is not good for my money if I'm investing in that ecosystem because it means I'm paying maybe premium, whereas I could pay the normal rate, which means my money has a long uh way to go, right? So, one of the key things that I think uh maybe you know the ecosystem I want to consider is and I hear you that your community experience, like community, you just spend money, you don't make money. But I think that helps a lot build the rails that requires to support that growth. And anyone who is doing that needs a lot of support, and sometimes if just people coming together and putting things together so that it doesn't become one entity's burden, which could actually open doors for for for the for the for the investment. Because investment is not just a matter of like, you know, I have a cool idea. Also, I want to know does it can this market afford this idea so that if I invest, for sure, there is returns. And and also investment is not as good as it sounds. Sometimes people put in money and that's how you close your company very much if you don't really offer the value that you agreed upon, as well as also there's toxic investment and so on. So, yeah, I mean, it's your ecosystem. Uh definitely we can always exchange thoughts. Uh, but given you are a key player there, I think you've done a lot. Uh, so maybe you can uh get a few other people to chime in and ensure that that is growing because for sure the the money is out there, but one thing I've learned also in the developed economies where we have these VC fund, people can give you one million dollars easy just to try your business model, is because the rail is always moving. Every single day there's a community meeting, either of VCs, businesses, devs, hackers, and so on and so forth, trying to innovate, trying to see what's the best solution. And that requires a lot of also government policies, requires support. And with what is going on in TZ today, it's crazy, man. But all in all, it's a process of growth. And for sure, I've seen TZ actually over time overcome some of these challenges. And despite everything that's happening, it looks like a bad thing, but it's also good because now people can actually take uh responsibility and grow. But back to our uh you know, you know, line of questioning whereby you have a business, you have a couple of products, you have experiences, you have built, you have tested

Startup School Fees And Founder Mistakes

SPEAKER_05 38:16

the markets. What are the biggest challenges in that journey so far? The biggest challenges, yes. Is money one of them?

SPEAKER_04 38:27

Money is a big is a is one of them. Yeah, but also I think I have uh a friend, uh he call it school fees. The challenge. So the challenge is school fees, is that what is school fees? That's what I'm trying to explain. Okay, okay. But if you if you're a founder, right? And you're new, right? And you come and build your startup, you're gonna pay school fees. Right? So school fees is like there's something that you're doing because you don't know well the market, like you're not experienced enough, or you don't know, maybe instead of this, um, I think I should be doing that, right? Yeah, so I think uh for as much as I might watch a lot of you know, why combinator and everything's trying to upskill yourself, but still going to market for lessons as me as a first time founder. There's a lot of things you're doing, and you're like, oh shit. This is a new one. This this isn't working, okay? Yeah. So I think that is also one of the like like knowing the right things to do. I think a lot of experimentation. And sometimes it sometimes you have time to fix what you like, the mistake you make. Sometimes you have little time, and sometimes you survive, you barely survive. So I think that is also one of a big one. I think I'm just trying to basically know what to do, right? For instance, I'll say you're talking about community here. I've I've experienced a lot, a lot of events. I was attending a lot of events. I had I have badges everywhere in my room, right? Yeah. But there's there's like there's this difference event, right? Because there's events, maybe they train you the same thing, how to raise money, how to do this, how to do that. But what is the problem are you actually facing today? Have those people actually run companies and and so what actually matters. So I think you don't as a founder, maybe you might have all this understanding, but still you you lack the really experience, the actual knowledge that you need. The ground experience. The ground experience. And the ground experience sometimes comes in a brutal way, right? Which is comes like, okay, you go on the market, you make a mistake, it punishes you, and then you now learn. So now learning is now paying the school fees. Okay. So is how much school fee can you pay in in while you're doing your startups? So, like in terms of hiring, or how what kind of hiring? How would what should you not make? So those kind of things, I think you you're really gonna you're going to make them. But if sometimes there's more of intimate in terms of like, I think what you're saying in community from actual founders, people actually run these companies and actually telling, actually, this is what I think uh been going through, this is what this is uh this is how you do about this. But I think a lot of community sharing around these challenges, I think, would really do it. Yeah, but I still I think that that's one of the challenges. I think just trying to because you started doing AI for B2B, you come now doing commerces, there's a lot of learning you need to do because you're kind of moving from one market to complete another market, and you have to kind of like go blank there and try to learn as much as you can, yeah, as fast as you can, because if you don't do that, you're gonna pay massive school fees.

SPEAKER_06 41:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:29

And what is the like the one that you feel like you will not make it going forward? Or the school fee that you'll not pay going forward. You have already paid enough of that school fee. Is it bad hiring? Is it you know closing a bad you know business? Which one is it?

SPEAKER_04 41:50

The couple, I think I think one of them early on, I think I was too much techie, right? More than an entrepreneur. I was putting tech here and then business here, right? So as an entrepreneur, I I take a sense of pride in building, right? Yeah, like I I as a techie, you know, I like building stuff. Yes, and sometimes you might really like that a lot to the extent you don't really think of the business fundamentals as much as often. It's not like you don't think of it at all. Yeah, it's like you don't think it's as often. Yeah, you should be thinking of it every single day. Yeah, yeah, yeah because that's the actual business. Because if you have the techie in the cool, it's actually working, but there's no there's no business, there's no money coming, there's no cash flow, there's no business, right? So I think for a while I I was building on building Sarufi, I was early much on that, and it kind of costed me because there's a point where we're basically almost running out of money and there's no money coming in. So it means you you it means your entire cash flow was basically from an investor, right? So it means how do you sustain yourself going forward? How do you make sure whatever action you're taking, whatever presentation you're doing, it's also to help you stabilize. Okay, you're getting the revenue. So maybe something's not working, cut it off.

SPEAKER_03 43:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:04

Day one, right? Yeah, don't wait, not because you love it, don't wait for, I don't know, three months. Something's not really working and you're not really it depends, but I think that that that that that was quite something for me. It's kind of like, okay, you know, you need to also root yourself like heavily um on the business fundamentals on on like as a business apart from just taking yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:25

Okay, okay, fair

WhatsApp Flow For Ticketing And Forms

SPEAKER_05 43:27

enough. I know your business also supports uh transport and logistic. Uh, how is that going? Oh, you mean bold? Yeah, no, Sarufi. Does Sarufi support buses and uh okay, okay.

SPEAKER_04 43:41

So, yeah, so I think we we we have um like three companies now in the in in the in the logistics space, but mostly around the the offering one is offering our major client is offering like ferry ticketing, most of the designs. Ferrying buses, very buses, yeah, and another one more doing of the same. So another one is doing bus ticketing. So we have one, I think. We've been working on from like last year. We did the first pilot, it didn't actually work very much, and now we're trying to relaunch it. Um, but the fact is, there's a new there's a new like experience from WhatsApp, it's called WhatsApp Flow. What it basically allows you to do is to create mini apps on WhatsApp. Okay, yeah. So I think when building boards, the different architecture you can actually consider. The one actually which started with is whereby you just use a normal component is whereby you send a message, you get a message. You send a message, you get a message. So you might find sometimes, let's say, a booking takes 20 steps. That's a lot. That's a 20 messages. Yeah. And then 20 messages, you remember, you might make mistakes, right? So the way you get an error is another message to send back and get back. So it was good, but yeah, a lot of people, like you know, the reach class level and but also understanding of technology were really struggling with those kind of experiences. So what we're doing now is basically with this WhatsApp flow introductions, we're able to render actual forms and proper error rogging. Like the same thing you do, like on a mobile app, you're able now to kind of replicate the same experience in a much smooth environment, like on WhatsApp flow. Um, yeah. So now we we we we've done that for Azam Marine, we've done that now for this um OTAP, which is now offering, or like let's say if you're trying to book for a bus, you can just go on WhatsApp, it give you a form on WhatsApp, and then you can actually uh select a bus, uh, choose a seat by clicking instead of typing, and yeah, you're done. So the architecture that we're basically using is we should make user do less as much as possible. So if they type, they need to type twice only, maybe all thrice. Yeah, but the rest should be just click, click, click, click, you're done. Because a lot of people don't don't like that too much back and forth. Too much back and forth. Yeah, yeah. So I think for for buses, it's still early stages where we're now launching these new experiences, but so far the feedback is is is amazing. Yeah, yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:47

And talking of that experience and uh the AI, have you experimented agents?

SPEAKER_04 45:53

Yeah, agents have been experimented. It uh we're now considering it on one of our development. We did try to use it on Gala, but we kind of paused it a bit for a while. Yeah, so I think the way you you think of it, like okay, because agent is basically it's normal chatbot, is just you send a response, you find a message, like if you maybe understand the context, you find a response and you send it back. But agent can be more like uh it's like like an entity, it's never can have access to tools, resources, and can actually do more than just that, right? You can actually do some researches and before responding back. Yes. So what that does, uh, I think it's good. Uh it's become more accurate and maybe more uh conversational, more the control is like it's much more because if you're using normal chatbot, it's it's very, very like it's like a lockbox, right? It's locked. So there's only like room you can go in the Inter. But with an agent, it's kind of like giving you an open floor. So just if you give them tools and resources, it's like an open floor that you can go basically anywhere, it can actually manipulate. There's no specific way it can actually act, uh, but it depends on actually. But yeah, so what that means is that it's gonna be good, but sometimes it's gonna ban a lot of token. Yeah, it's gonna ban a lot of money. So you think it's an expensive venture as of now? Uh it depends on the use case, right? For some use cases for us, let's say for Gala, because we're not charging people for the chat, we're charging for the payment. So if we have re heavily use agent, what might lead to an expensive affair for you. Exactly. And you know, I think token price is gonna go down, as you know, it's gonna go down. But as as last time where we're making a decision where now, okay, we're going with the normal architectures or we should use agent, it was it's more like, okay, do we really need this a lot of thinking? Because people might just, you know, click, click and then done, you know. But yeah, I think at some point there's limitation of knowing doing a normal chatbot. So as I said, it's like a locked room. So if someone comes with another something new, it's basically gonna say, hey, sorry, I don't understand that. Please repeat. Yeah, yeah. But an agent can do much more. And I think, hey, I mean, I think over time, we are we're now what we're doing right now is so when someone went on board or on Gala, they get a mercant app for receiving all the orders, but at the same time, a customer gets a chatbot. But what we're doing now is what if the entire onboarding could be on WhatsApp? So if what if if we don't run an ad, it doesn't go to website, go to WhatsApp. So now we're doing uh with WhatsApp flow, we're basically doing all our onboarding to be on WhatsApp. People come on WhatsApp, put all their business informations, but at the same time, their WhatsApp becomes like their personal shop assistant. So they're able to talk like, okay, maybe uh spend kit flying it, gonna add on expenses. They say, but maybe you can say maybe, yeah, what is my sales yesterday? Uh who is my top customer? So they can have their WhatsApp number that is basically there's an agent that is managing the shop. Or maybe ah, I want you to create an invoice for 5k for this one. Can an invoice send back to you? So we're now trying to kind of like create a simplified version of the Mercant app because that is gonna be sitting on WhatsApp. So sometimes if someone they might only use an app for certain maybe analytics or understanding, or maybe they want to cash out money, but the operation day-to-day usage and recording can be kept through WhatsApp, and there's an agent running all the way there, like a shop assistant for them. Yeah.

Social Commerce Now And What’s Next

SPEAKER_05 49:10

Wonderful. So, Kalebu, what's the future of Africa matters e-commerce?

SPEAKER_04 49:16

Oh, I think social commerce is the future, and it's not the future, it's here. It's just very informal, right? Yeah, I think I think commerce is is like the the commerce is working, right? Commerce is here and a lot of people are doing it, are using it. It's just not formalized. Yeah. So if you look around, even TZ, I don't know, so many countries in Africa's, um, you have you see there's 97, 98 penetration of WhatsApp. A lot of people are using it to have all these business conversations. I think commerce is already here. It's just not formalized. And what you're doing is Gala is basically trying to just add that formal layer to existing patents because with technology, especially in Africa, trying to bring something that requires people to learn something new or build new behavior. It's actually a hard challenge. You know, you people, if if if you wake up in the morning, what's the first app you open?

SPEAKER_05 50:08

I mean uh TikTok.

SPEAKER_04 50:10

TikTok, okay. That's fine. I do WhatsApp after email. After email. After email, okay. I do WhatsApp. A lot of there's 90, 97, 98 in many countries penetration of WhatsApp. So it's yeah, it's like a de facto, even maybe, yeah, de facto. I would say maybe even more than SMS. But I mean, so I think SMS is just right there.

SPEAKER_05 50:30

You don't need to open it. Exactly. That's an interesting aspect about SMS.

SPEAKER_04 50:33

Yes, exactly. So what I'm saying is you have this uh major platform that people are using every day. Every day we wake up, use WhatsApp, people open WhatsApp, I don't know, 100 times a day, uh, messages, personal charts. So the behavioral pattern are already built around the app.

SPEAKER_06 50:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 50:49

But also now you see a lot of now sales behavioral are built around WhatsApp. It's just now personal charts.

SPEAKER_06 50:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:55

Personal commerce. Yeah. Like someone is replying, talking to you, talking to you. Yeah. So what you were doing is more just formalizing, giving it an element of freedom. Yeah. Because right now, if you are doing that human commerce, you run and add a hundred people, a thousand people coming in, you can't handle them. Or maybe you've did a promotion, you people coming in, you can't handle them. You go on a vacations, your business is off. So, what you're trying to do, what if the same way you're doing your commerce, the same way that is working now, it could actually work without you being there, it could actually work with you having one staff just money, or like let's say you're overseeing the the bots. So just like like a like a manager for the bots. Okay, so it's like okay, okay, maybe this is happening. But instead of just being having like, I don't know, three people are always there replying to this message, opening this chat box, opening a chat box. This is a task that AI and and tech can actually do well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:51

And and Caleb, you have noticed that ChatGPT has actually launched a feature where you can actually search your product directly from the Chat GPT. Very much. How is that gonna impact your business model?

SPEAKER_04 52:05

I think there's gonna be some like some disruption, maybe I don't think immediately, maybe in the future, because I've I still be strongly believe they they have to build new like Chat GPT is used for maybe finding something like I want what is this, define that, what is this? So I think they're trying to make Chat GPT and everything up, which is I think very cool.

SPEAKER_05 52:26

Now they have a browser, which is kind of interesting.

SPEAKER_04 52:29

Have you used it?

SPEAKER_05 52:30

Not yet. Okay, that's just a browser I'm using that I feel like they have integrated it already. Comet no no, dear, okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:39

So that tells a lot if you haven't used it. Yeah, this tells a lot. Yeah, so I think I think I think I think still there's WhatsApp is kind of for me like a like a high contender for commerce because charge pity needs to do that, you need to build that thing from scratch. Because first of all, I'm going to Chat GPT. I don't know the the face behind it. Chat GPT have to to to scrap around to show me the product, right? So the difference with WhatsApp is I have your number, yeah, I called you just the minute and we talked. And then so I think that aspect of WhatsApp being already um having all that massive penetration. Yeah, because you need penetration for you to sell, right? You need penetration of users, but sometimes awareness of how people use things that that gives it a bit of an edge when it comes to commerce. And right now, WhatsApp, they're doing everything they can to open themselves to developers.

SPEAKER_06 53:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:34

So I think right now it's very much open platform. Yeah, so you see, it's not good office, but but I'm saying like I think two to three years ago, yeah, I used to pay for WhatsApp to pay for supports. Our client was basically getting a bill, like a huge bill. But right now, nobody's paying. And you're still using and you're building all those like component mini apps, nobody's paying. The only the what you're just selling is the cross-selling. If you want to do marketing, you pay. But if you're just basically just testing things out, yeah. Not testing things out, running an actual business.

SPEAKER_05 54:10

Oh, at what point do they start charging you?

SPEAKER_04 54:12

They don't charge you unless maybe you want to market.

SPEAKER_05 54:15

What does that go into marketing?

SPEAKER_04 54:16

So, for instance, like okay, we as I told you of like Azam Marine, right? Yes. So what it does is the customer DM say, Wait, uh, hi, hi there. Okay, you want to go get click here. So if a customer texts you first, you don't pay.

SPEAKER_05 54:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 54:30

But let's say you you are you're having like a like a bland new uh sneakers uh that you want to promote. So you want to use this WhatsApp templates to promote it. So that's when WhatsApp charges, okay? You want to promote the same way like Instagram. So it don't charge you to post, they charge you to boost. Yeah. To boost and promote your app. The same way with WhatsApp, they don't charge all these experiences. So it means for me, I can basically spend nothing building all this experience on WhatsApp. So why would you do that if why would you make it so easy for people to build platforms like on your things on your platform? That's the future. I see WhatsApp is Peter Lini Mump Test. I see.

SPEAKER_05 55:12

No, I mean when you said uh it's more developer-friendly, I found that statement quite interesting, given that you know, Facebook used to have Facebook dev circles, which they discontinued for no apparent reason.

Why Developer Communities Still Matter

SPEAKER_05 55:26

So I I'm like, if I was a dev there, which I was, is it worth now going back because they have this AI stuff on WhatsApp, as well as you know, the integrating businesses and they fail now? We need more devs to build on this platform. And and it's just it's a problem I have with so many other companies that really every time they they they they see they see the need of devs, then they purport to see the importance of devs. But on anomaly, they they're like dev is a waste of money, dev you're burning cash, dev communities uh this and that, and they play around communities like at you know as long as not serving our needs, we can't support it, which I think should stop. And I think uh being in the community spectrum, especially developer community, you cannot escape the investment of building sustainable communities. It has to be very intentional. And I think there's one company I'll give a shout out to uh or two now that I'm I'm here. One is Google. Google has always been consistent since the I don't know how many years ago. Even when people didn't understand why is Google doing all these events for devs, why do they have GDGs, GDEs, now they have even GDEs, now they have DSCs, which are based in uh in the universities. And another one is it. Not that because I work for them, but they have been very intentional about where they are with the developers, just empowering them to build scalable solutions. And it has worked really well. It doesn't matter if you're making any money from devs or not, devs is the powerhouse, is the engine of what makes any solution scale. If you ignore that, the price is so high, man. Like even the trust itself, and there are so many companies, I don't want to mention names here, which are paying the price until today. And whenever they feel like they need devs, they go that with that after you know, whatever. You yourself, you are uh what you have just said is an evidence of how you felt when you used to be charged, and you pass that to the customer, and of course the customer will pay, but they will not be happy. Like, why am I paying and I'm not making money? But if you approach it from the point of that everything is an ecosystem, and for ecosystem to work, it has to be symbiotic. Definitely everyone will make their money, but do not come with the money first because money first actually wears out really fast, especially when the value is not so clear. Yeah, sorry guys, I'm going on a rant here, but I've been in this ecosystem, I've seen it all. And one of the key things about this podcast is telling the way it is and ensuring that anyone who wants to learn they can learn and pick the important lessons out of it. And shout out to everyone who is supporting devs out there. You know, most of us as a result of devs programs that have been around for quite a while, and that's why some of us dedicate time being speakers, facilitating, sponsoring, and so on to make sure that continuity is there. But we cannot do it on our own. We have to curate, we have to come together. Yeah. Finally, let me talk about money, which is a very interesting aspect.

Fundraising Lessons From The Trenches

SPEAKER_05 58:41

You've been raising money, man, and the way you raise money is kind of fascinating. Any lessons there? Is it easy? Is it is it coincidental? Is it luck, niñota?

SPEAKER_04 58:52

I think being in the right place at the right time.

SPEAKER_05 58:54

Yeah, so for you, you have never said out that I'm going to raise money, it's just being out there.

SPEAKER_04 59:00

No, I've I did, I did, yeah. I've said it. Yeah, yeah, but saying it doesn't make it. Doesn't mean you're gonna get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think I think for me, let's think it in 2022, you set a company, and then yeah, it's such such you don't know if you're gonna need I was thinking the most money I'm gonna get is maybe just revenue, right? Revenue gonna sustain the companies. Yeah, yeah, but so I was not even very much thinking of raising money at all, right? Just okay, can I can we give uh can I can we get this to a like a proper business that actually making money and we can grow? And then over time, you know, posting and posting, you're getting a call. Hey, I would like to have a meeting with you. We'd like to invest. Yeah, yeah. So I think I think I had those early conversations early on, and it was very, very like alien to me. Like, okay, oh, people are willing to put money on me. I had to take a break, okay? So I'm gonna go do do some Googling and like, okay, okay, what does this mean? They're gonna take ownership or is it safe or maybe convertible not? So what is this? Yeah, yeah. But a lot of those early stage, like like engagement didn't much convert into like investment. Because I remember you, you know, you have meetings with an investor, you're excited, you're calling your mom, like, oh mom, I'm gonna make Zuckerback. I'm gonna be Mark Zuckerberg, yeah. And then what you know is just masses, masses go by, nobody's doing anything, right? Yeah, yeah, and it can be kind of like yeah, like you know, character development, right? Okay, and next time you meet an investor and they talk you, and they're like, Okay, you're just calm, like, okay, tell me until I see that check.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:38

So you have to be out there, you have to tell your story.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:41

It's it's a must. So you see, because it depends on where you come from, imagine because there's people you have, I don't know, you have Stanford MIT badge. You know, we're not in the same level as me, right? Yeah, compared to okay, youho, you don't have any, you don't even have a degree, you're just uh you're never working in corporate, you don't have that, okay. X, X what X what uh X metax in Google, you don't have that on your badge, yeah. You don't have a MIT badge, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:05

You just have a hustler badge, and then you're Tanzanian, you're an Africa, you have all the negative things that you any VCU look at.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:13

Exactly. So it means it's uh it's quite a character development, you know. You you it's getting put up very fast and to the point, like me. I think for me, even like my first investment, my second investment, to my I think maybe my third, I kind of planned a bit, but it was more of being the right person right time. You know, like it was not like an intentional guy is fundraising and here's the valuation. I didn't understand. Yeah, so I you just said I need money. No, no. My first investment, I didn't sell any money, I was broke as what and then all I was doing. I I mean I don't know how to fundraise now, you know, like you know, you're just learning as as you go, you know, just putting a plan as you as you drop, yeah, and then you know, just doing like the the basics, building something, posting and posting, and someone likes to invest a stranger, basically, not someone you know, like stranger said oh, you come to come come to Cape Town and then have a nice talk, and then he invested. So, and then I think that was the most one of the simplest negotiations I ever did because I didn't even know what I wanted, right? Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:30

Was that the best deal, or do you guess cruel?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:33

I mean, it served us. It's never uh maybe you could have negotiated better, but I think it really served us, you know, Julia. You know, that you are you're almost closing down, almost closing down, basically no customers, you just passionate gigs. Nobody gives you money at that stage, yeah. Unless maybe you're in Silicon Valley or somewhere because here people really need like the metrics that you the business you need to have to for them to invest. You need to be somewhere. Yeah, you're just like a I don't know, one person and an in an intern says it to you. So basically they can't value it to you. You have a product with no traction. Do they know that it's actually gonna work? So, how what is the value of your company? You know, you don't have your first-time founder. So there's a lot of like negative, as I said, about you, to the point that even if you say okay, it's it's a bad deal, who will invest in you?

unknown 1:03:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:20

So it's it was a good deal, I would say. You know, Julie, it was a good deal. What I'm saying is just I wasn't very much aware with the fundraising space, all the teams and everything. So it was one of the simplest negotiations I ever did. It was like, okay, how much are you burning? I'm like, this. I'm saying I'm gonna give you for the next 12 months. Oh, yeah. And then I was like, okay, this percent, I'm like, yes. Just that. Wow, yep. Interesting. There's now much like oh, I'll come back to you. It's account offer, no, nothing like that. Wow, yeah. So and they're still uh helping you out with the mentorship. Of course, of course.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:50

Yeah, okay, yeah. Now you did another fundraising just recently.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:54

Yeah, so I think I think we've been doing a lot. Um I see the product like evolution, the new product, but like, okay, it's a different product. Yeah, so I think a lot of the team has been growing. Yeah, so I think before that we did have an angel investor, yeah. So I think around 2024, late 2024. Um same time the last money was almost running out.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:18

Yeah, you you just found another guy telling you come over?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:22

Wow, you must be the luckiest uh entrepreneur in the world, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:27

So it was not like I didn't post anywhere, like hey, someone called you from nowhere. No way is far, right? Okay, maybe they've been seeing you, you're posting somewhere, uh, and so what you're doing is kind of interesting, right? Uh-huh. Or complementary to what they so it was basically what you're doing with Saruf is complementary to their product offering. Okay, yeah, and then they're like, Oh, let's have a chat. Are you raising? Of course, I had my deck, you know, but I spent it, you know. At that point, I never raised money from a deck, okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:55

What did you create this deck for? Is it for customers or no for investors, of course.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:00

Like because you you you take a meeting from time to time, right? But you know, it's they barely translate the point. Gamba, you basically kind of lose faith in raising money through deck. What does that mean? Because you've done that a lot, right? Oh, okay. Yeah, maybe I don't know. I never raised money from going on like on a stage. Yeah, so you've done that a lot, and kind of like just like you're doing it as a catcher, right? Okay, I have my deck here, yeah. Yeah, so you have never pitched on a on a stage. I did, I did. I did, I think this year I did a lot of things I've never done before. Okay, um, yeah. So this year I did something like a new journey for me. Yeah, yeah. So at that point, I was like, okay, you are you're raising like yes, uh, you have a number, yes. So at the point I'm raising, but I'm not I I don't approach investors, you know. Are you really raising if you don't do it? You're not talking to the VC. You're not talking to the VC. So me raising was me having my deck, okay? So, which is, I mean, so I think, yeah, and then he was like, Okay, I were interested. And you know, in I think in three months they they became an investor too. Yeah, it was, and at that point, now this was now like okay, this is the second one, right? So I had more time to like do the negotiation. So I'm like, oh, I'll come with count of. I'm like, oh, that's not for me. But you're saying that from a completely disparate position, you know, like as a founder, can't you can just show that it's like a poker, right? Yeah, you need to put you know poker face, you need you know like the company is gonna survive the next two weeks, yeah. But you say um that's not for meat, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you put a poker face, and now you sort of learn a bit more, like, oh, what is a safe? What is the it is instrumental better? The first one I think was just basically the termship. There's not much of like a safe doing. So this time how here you need to open like a Delaware entity, you need to do this. So a bit I had a bit more experiences, but sometimes I also managed to get like quite a mentorship of other founders who've raised money before. So I'm going, okay, hey, raise money from this. What do you think? What should I do? So I think that kind of helped also me like learn better because if you don't know where you stand, it's very hard to even move forward, right? Yes, you need to know at least where are you standing. Yeah, you can watch videos, but sometimes ground is different, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:07:11

The ground is always different.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:13

The ground is different from the Y Covenetta videos. Um, unless maybe you go there, you know, but you also need to have people locally, founders who are actually building and raising, raised from local O VC. And yeah, so I was managed to get a bit of like support from that. Yeah, and it really helped me like you know, negotiate better on it on a deal and the terms because you can then get a good money, but sometimes the terms are kind of you know, yeah, they're kind of restrict you and may scriple you sometimes. So I was this time around, I was like able to kind of be very like diligent through the term shade, negotiate the terms, negotiate the evaluations. Yeah, and then this year again, so it was not like a huge sum check, you know? It was just like a small angel check. So this are this time around with Scala, we've like see there's like huge potential to really grow it. Uh there's a huge uptake in early customers that we're seeing. Yeah. And we're like, okay, as a startup, we can't be like with so the the the fact was like we don't raise big money unless maybe you find something that you actually see can actually work, right? You've actually tested it, so you're scaling that. Because if you raise money when you don't even know what you're trying to raise for, you might just spend it, and then over time you find out, okay, what did I do? Um, so yeah, so I'm thinking we're thinking this kind of can actually work, and then so I begin the fundraising. So I begin like, okay, automatically building my Excel sheet, building an investor list, uh outreach, send code emails, and then over time again, you know, send I was sending, um, going on LinkedIn, find our investors, send them call emails, yeah, did almost everything. They say, Oh, Kalev, you know, you need to need to come and pitch somewhere. I go, yeah, I pitch. Yeah, I go. So I was I've kind of a bit aggressive, right? Because like, you know, I'm like, okay, because I I feel like for the past two years, I was a bit more reserved, right? I'm always waiting for an investor to come to me and say, hey, you wanted to invest. And sometimes maybe you can get yourself a better deal by being out there, right? And applying and exposing yourself to much more surface area for luck to act on you. And I think that's this is what I did. I was basically, oh, Caleb, there's even there's big stage investors, over 300 are coming. You need to come pitch on stage. So I'm like, okay, I've never did that, but I'm gonna do it, right? So it was like a lot of learning, right? You go on a on a on a like on I don't know, on a demo, demo pitch, you say Caleb, no, no, you don't do that. And I'm like, no, I have to learn, I have to learn because I can't always be uh sitting in my room, yeah, building like that. Because yeah, I mean if if if you are if you want if you want to raise, as if you want to grow and as a founder, you need to be out there, right? Learn how to lean learn the yeah, the ropes, the ropes. Yeah, I'm like, I need to expose myself as much as maybe I might find it uncomfortable, maybe um I might stuck, I might you know, suck at it in the very first time, but over time, uh you come better, you come better, and you you're exposing yourself too much surface pool, you're learning, getting feedback to actually help you grow. Yeah, and also I think I did apply to a lot of opportunities. I see Nini apply. I'm like, okay, Chat GPT, thank you so much. Simplify the process, simplify the process. I think Chat GPT played a great role because I can't imagine very applying very long applications or an element because yeah, you don't just take it to Chat GPT and apply for it because you all already know what you're doing in your document, you have a Nini. So it's just illegal English, uh proper English, you don't you don't know it if Chat GPT you can actually refine it to make sense to the other person. Yeah, and we see when I come up with back in the while, you're talking about English. I know some because I'm coming like a common if you can actually use tools well and you know what you're doing. Yeah, yeah. So I think so. We did got like for this year we've got three investments, I think. One one actually from an NGO network and two grants. Oh, nice. And yeah, I mean, I think grant combined, maybe they exceed over all the not the maybe they they kind of exceed all the um equity for equipment raising. Okay, yeah. I think for Tanzania it's kind of like that, you know. Okay, there's investors, but um not much VC ecosystem, right? Because you get it grant to pinuers, right? But you know, same uh if if you if you're in a market where your only option basically like the only available means maybe grants. As a founder can't be choosy, you can buy oh, this is grant, it's distractive. I have KPIs to report. Yeah, you don't have you don't have that actually, right? Yeah, yeah. So I think the ecosystem can go up and buy in uh in uh resources for like in our inner funding resources, like for our market for early stage founders. I think there's also this we we've got investment from Silicon Engine Network, it's like a like a basically a network of NGO investors putting their own money in you. Sometimes we have got two grants, so um mostly one called Fungo, another one called DevOpp.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:02

Yeah, so I think I think those are all those are local.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:06

So they're grants, not local, they're basically one from European Unions, but they're funded by you know European unions.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:11

Oh, they're they're channeling their local organizations that channels that to different you know ventures.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:18

Very much okay. Yeah, so I think I think right now I think that that that's quite something that can actually give us now the the space to really build the proper business uh KPIs to now raise from a proper like VC. Yeah, so I think I think it's been quite a journey. I think for for me, what I I think work quite well. I think it's first time people have to know you, you know, right? You might be building the multi-school solution, but if they don't know you, they can't invest in you. So I think I spend a lot of time, you know, exposing myself out there, putting myself out there, but sometimes also building the business, right? Yeah, building a business, but also sharing. So doing that and but also sometimes applying to opportunities. So also doing that, I think it's quite like yeah, help us a bit to get quite uh quite substantial. I think LST Capital that I think we're now really now trying to use it to scale Gala, yeah. Sometimes grow the enterprise operation, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:11

Yeah. I mean, that's that's cool, man. And thanks for sharing that.

Closing Advice, Book Pick, And Unity

SPEAKER_05 1:13:15

So I think we're gonna come to the conclusion of today's recording. But if you have one word for our community, don't know which camera, you can face that camera and talk to other entrepreneurs in the this ecosystem.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:29

Uh Kenya, everyone, Africa. Um I think I think Saivi. Oh, I need to use English now. Feel free to use whatever you're comfortable. Uh okay. So for me, I think I think I it's a call for like a lot of more like people who are given ideas, the founders. Um, I think the space is really opening up. For me, I mean, uh, if you ask me a couple of years ago, come okay, would you be here today? I would say completely no, right? Uh, because uh for most of the part you don't really plan how you're gonna make it, right? You just it doesn't mean you don't need to have a plan. You only have a plan, it won't work out. And something else will work out, right? So I think there's a lot of more there's a lot of more opportunities in a space. There's massive AI tools that is making easier now for anyone to kind of like build something and ship it. So I think it's a call, like okay, the entrepreneur hassle, it's actually very, very hard. But sometimes I think there's also a huge upside uh to it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:32

Thank you so much, Kalebu. And any proverb for today? Proverb. I'm uh metali.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:39

Metali.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:40

If you don't have that for which which book would you read the rest of your time in planet earth? If you had one book, just one book, yeah, that you read the rest of your time here on planet earth.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:53

That's we Bible, no? Beside the Bible, beside the Bible. The one book I liked a lot, it's a book by Robert Green. It's called Mastery. Yeah. So I think I really like the book. Um, you guys as someone may I'm really obsessed with a career and building Nini. So the guy in the mastery is kind of talking away how you can like develop your master and overstate the career. You know, you're like, so you're taking all like the stories of other people, how they came to be what you see them today. You know, you don't you do you see people today and then you're like, okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:30

You think they're super cool, they're super powerful, but it takes time.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:33

But it's it's it's humbling experience and it's also like patience, but sometimes, yeah. So it's it's really like it's a book that I read. I feel like it's really talk to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:41

Mastery by Robert Green. Yeah. I'll leave you with one proverb. It's a swahili proverb talking about unity. And one of the key things about unity is that everyone brings something on the table, regardless of who they are. And it's very important in African ecosystem where we believe that community always wins. Kalebu Jordan Guarugano stands among the buildests enabling this transition through Sarufi, Gala, and Gala Rails. Is not only solving operational bottlenecks, but defining a new paradigm for how Africa businesses adopt AI and conduct commerce. Kalebo, thank you so much for joining and contributing conversation that really is gonna help and move the needle for most entrepreneurs in Africa. And thank you, Africa Stalking, for supporting this podcast. Africa Stocking, you can find all the APIs and the pricing and the community and the documentation at africastalking.com and Impact Masters, in case you're looking for a solution as a service, check out Impactmasters.io and everyone who has contributed, including our behind the scene producer, Oliver Wera. One of these days we're gonna pull him on this other side of the camera to talk more about. He has a story that he doesn't like telling, but soon he has to tell his story. Yeah. Until next time, my name is Michael Kemadi, and you can call me MK anytime if Michael Kemadi sounds mouthful.